word

As a quick addendum, while I'm already goofing off at work, I will deffinitively* shoot down the "Intelligent Design" horseshittery that's been stinking up the airwaves of late.

I can do it with one word:

"Appendix."

Argument over. Creationbillies can suck Adam & Eve's pet dinosaur's dick.

Yeah, I'm just a little pissed off over this. I'm taking steps to deal with it.

*(I will not, however, be making sure that I spell words like "deffinitively" correctly. For that I'm very sorry.)

Hey Dudes, Your contact link is dead at the top of yer page. Also, It's not pheasable to leave peoples actual emails on a comments page any more - get with the program. Most up to date sites make sure commentators email addresses aren't shown.

Yep. There is no God. There was no "intelligent design". There is no heaven, no hell.

But I may ask one question here (and this is not directed to anyone here): Why is it that the left comes down so hard on Christianity yet gets all twisted out of shape whenever someone knocks or criticizes Judaism and Islam? Happens a lot these days. Don't these other two monotheistic religions believe in the same fairy tales? Just can't seem to figure this one out because I, personally, have been on the recieving end of much verbal abuse because I have rejected the belief systems of all three. When it came to Christianity: no one said a word. When it came to Judaism and Islam, I was being "intolerant".

Very amusing to me to say the least.

Anyway, today's problems seem to be rooted in these beliefs. It isn't just Christianity. It's all three Abrahamic religions. They ALL claim to be "truth" and the majority of people out there (nearly 3 Billion, if not more) believe in these or some form of supernatural being.

Talk about a theater of the absurd!

It's funny how worked up you kids get over Christianity's lowest rung.

Aren't there things that are actually important that could be discussed besides the goings-on in some flat-as-a-pancake flyover Red state in the middle of America?

Oh, there are far more important things sure...but when you get people who believe things like the Noah story is literally true; that Adam and Eve actually existed; and that there is some supernatural force guiding the lives of humanity in the position & power to pass laws based on this absurdity, it becomes a problem. The whole FCC fiasco regarding the Janet Jackson nonsense a few years ago was completely based on religious morality. Because of this, a government agency began to step in to "enforce laws". This is just one example.

And don't discount the "flyover" states. So-called "liberal" states like to do that. They have more pull than most people realize.

But this isn't limited to Christianity. Judaism and Islam also have very restrictive rules and if given the chance, they would impose those rules on everyone and anyone but not as likely in the US because it's primarily a chirstian country.

I have no problem with people believing in whatever they want to believe in. I just have a problem when they start passing laws based on that belief; laws that effect everyone.

This issue of teaching creationism as fact is a problem. It's a religious belief. Not a fact.

The abortion issue. The idea of "life begins at conception" is a religious belief. Not a fact.

The stem cell issue, cloning, etc: they worry about people "playing God"; this is based on the idea that there IS a God to begin with; not a fact.

Things like this are important, don't you think?

It starts with slow steps...

Sergio's point is well taken. I, personally, make as much fun of the beliefs of Wiccans, Pagans, Zoroastrians, etc. as I do of boring ol' vanilla Christianity. It's just that I don't have Buddah giving me shit about my eternal soul on a regular basis, but Jesus (or his earthly reps, anyway) are constantly up in my grill. So the Xians get the hate. Everyone else gets whatever spills over.

I offer up a big fuck you to "ben".
if you actually study judaism, you'd see that it's much deeper than the simplified child view that you get taught at your reform or conservative hebrew schools.

judaism is HUMONGOUSLY (spelling?)different from christianity.

In fact, much of science actually agrees with judaism.

ask any real seasoned orthodox rabbi, and theyd be able to tell you how many theories, facts, and ideas of modern science are actually mentioned in the Torah such as: dinosaurs were mentioned in the creation story, the creation of the world is actually exactly the same idea as the big bang, 7 days of creation could have actually taken billions of years according to einsteins theory of relativity, the earth is round, etc.

its really the crappy king james translation that ruined so many things, and got people to associate judaism with christianitys stupid anti-science mentality.

if youre really that interested,
check out the book
The Science of God by Gerald Schroeder

I've actually met the author, while in Israel.
Heard him lecture too. Nice guy.

also by Schroeder

Judaism may be different on some things than Christianity, but it still believes in the same God--the God of Abraham---a God that doesn't exist. So what if Judaism embraces science more than the typical Christian does. Good for them. But there still is a belief in God; strict adherence to religious rituals; the belief that the Torah was actually written by God (and not by men, which it was). To argue that Judaism isn't essentially mysticism like the other monotheistic religions is disingenuous. Christianity evolved from Judaism (and for the 1st 100 years you had to be Jewish in order to follow Jesus---it was only after the first 100 years that it took different paths).

The Torah is no more written by God than the Koran was dictated to Muhammed by God or the New Testament being divinely revealed or whatever it's supposed to be.

Seems to me some people are simply anti-christian than they are atheists. This is not to say you are any of these things, but from my experience, most self-proclaimed atheists are not atheists at all---just anti-God; namely anti-christian.

Ben: I know what you are saying. I've had my share of it as well. BUt since I feel there is no God, I don't listen to them. I respect their beliefs, regardless if they don't respect mine. When I hear about how I'm going to burn in hell or I am a sinner, I ignore them. It means nothing to me. Since I don't believe in their mystical ideas of existence it's all just rambling nonsense to me---kinda like the scientoligists belief of aliens being chained to volcanos or whatever their nutty belief system is. It's all the same to me. So they can tell me I'm going to hell all they want. There is no hell so I'm not worried about it.

Mike D:

I'm going to go a bit off-topic and draw a distinction between a religion and a culture. I expressed a distaste for the former, not the latter. I understand and appreciate the significant contributions Jewish culture has brought the world-- including science, but to do that we have to include the development of gunpowder in China, the beginnings of physics (and metaphisics) in ancient Greece, the creation of algebra by Arabic culture, etc.

The 'fuck you' not withstanding, you're obviously not uninformed on the subject, but you may want to re-read what I wrote-- we're not really disagreeing.

The next step in evolution is to realize religion is bunk. If we can do this worldwide the Vulcans will land and welcome us to the Federation.

pertinent link:

http://sciencewins.ytmnd.com/

Agree with Ben. There is a definite difference between Religion & Culture. Jews have contributed a hell of a lot of important things to the culture of this world, as did the Arabs and Islamic culture in general. In fact, the Muslims were bringing science, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, etc while the Christian world was too busy burning everyone for "heresy" and whatever other reason.

Religion and culture are sometimes intertwined but with that said, sometimes the irrational side of things (the religion) interferes with the cultural side of things. A good example of this is what happened to Galileo.

Sometimes, even with immense cultural advances, the irrational takes precedent and in the case of the three major religions, this has happened quite often. You can see that in the present day as well.

It's a duality that, to me at least, boggles the mind.

I'm just another culture less schmuck, white butt American and I could give a rip about the Torah or whatever people want to use to be superior and annoy the rest of us with. Mormons need to quit pretending Jesus came to North America and Catholics need to quit pretending the pope isn't another confused gay dude in a clown outfit. Unitarians can't have their cake and eat it too(Homer wants to beat their ass btw). All these pompous ass people need to grow up - it really is the next stage of evolution to cool it with all these kooky religious beliefs. Dune is only science fiction - religion won't exist the way we see it now in the future, unless it sadly continues to be a tool for powerful, of course.

I'll just be sitting here on the couch watching Joseph Campbell and Baseball.

Stephen Hawking:

"The one remaining area that religion can now lay claim to is the origin of the universe," Hawking said, "but even here, science is making progress and should soon provide a definitive answer to how the universe began."

Drew: You're preaching to the converted as far as I'm concerned. But the sad reality is that over 3 billion people (and possibly much more than that) on this earth believe in some kind of supreme being. Most of them the God of Abraham. I guess it's just a remnant of some ancient part of the brain, I don't know.

At any rate, I don't care what people want to believe. My problem is with those who do believe in all this nonsense expect the rest of us to follow suit. Or passing laws based on religious beliefs (nothing new here, that's for sure). Those who take the existence of God as a given; as if they have no need to show proof.

It's a case of "The majority believes so therefore it must be true" or some other insane logic such as that. With that logic, then one could say "99% of the world believes that 1+1=568 so therefore it must be true".

Of course, a lot of these people must have very shaky faith. If one person can stand up and say "God does not exist" and they get all bent out of shape, how strong can their faith be?

Anyway, no need to convice me. I'm with you on this.

im not talkinga about jewish culture. im talking jewish religion.

if you study the Torah (the jewish bible), you would read the description of the creation of the world and that it is actually sounds exactly the same as the theory of the big bang. you would read that dinosaurs(yes, dinosaurs are mentioned in the 3500 year old texts) were created on the 5th(or 6th, cant remember exactly) day and then destroyed soon after. you would read how the earth is somethign like a sphere(again, the jewish religion says something 3000 years before science comes to the same conclusion)
and depending on what rabbi you ask, you would learn that the six days of creation could have actually been billions of years on earth, according to the theory of relativity. these are just a few examples of things that people usualy point to as religion being opposed to science, but when it comes to judaism, theyre wrong.

im talkin direct links and agreement between jewish RELIGION(not culture, although jewish contribution to science is undeniable, as you've pointed out)and science.

so in short: the ideas of the jewish religion don't conflict with the ideas of science and vice versa.

Yea, uh huh - Judaism has it all straight. That's why hasidic dudes make their wives wear all those ugly clothes and enjoy having concubines on the side. God intended it that way, of course. Yea, maybe we should just all become Jewish... that sounds like an option. At the least we can use the Jewish teachings in science class: "Okay class, open up the old testament to the part of Deuteronomy where it says we must chop off a woman's hands if she crushes the testicles of her husbands adversary"(22:13?). Bullshit on dinosaurs etc. and whatever else you were just saying.. go fly a kite, dude.

Judaism---the religion---believes in a God that was the creator of the universe. Judaism believes that the Torah was written by God and that it is the word of God. The bottom line is they believe in a creator. Despite the fact that jews have contributed to science and many other things, the fact is that jews believe in the same God as Christians do and Muslims do.

It seems to me here that you are defending Judaism against other religions because of whatever differences there may be. Fine. You believe in God.

My only argument here is that there IS NO God. I just find it very very hypocritical that those who condemn and criticize Christianity get a free pass but those who criticize the other two Abrahamic religions are met with charges of "intolerance" and "hate speech" or whatever else.

It seems to me that most people who rant and rave about religion are more anti-christian than they are atheists. As an atheist, the whole notion of God is a myth; a fairy tale, whether it be Christianity, Judaism or anything else. Yes, each religion has produced individuals who have contriubuted a lot of positive things to humanity. All three major religions have. No disputing that. But why are Christians free to be condemnded and criticized and it's "hands off" the other religions? Seems to me that there is simply a lot of christian-bashing out there by those who demand that their religions be off limits. That's bullshit. And very hypocritical.

The one God of the Jews is a myth, created by one man, Abraham, who declared it do be so. Why is this accepted as absolute truth, never to be questioned? Why are the other gods created by other cultures (Romans, Greeks, Norse, Celts, etc) dismissed as "mythology" and the God of Abraham never to be doubted or questioned? It seems to be all the same thing to me.

It's ok if you want to believe in God. I don't. I don't believe he exists. Therefore all religious doctrine, while it may have it's things to contribute, is nothing more to me than cultural beliefs, opinions and mythology. It's just one other way for mankind to help explain our existence and answer questions that are not easily answerable.

The bottom line is: If you condemn one religion for being "mythology", all the rest follow suit. There is no such thing as "I can criticize your religion but don't you dare criticize mine" when you have no proof whatsoever that there is even a God in the first place.

drew, you dont know jack shit. you are an ignorant bigot.
way to judge something before you even learn about it. how enlightened of you. thats real intellectual value right there.

and to sergio. okay we have differences in our belief of god. i can accept that. but to say that criticizing one religion is criticizing the very fabric and idea of all religions, i dont agree. i believe judaism to be so fundamentally different in its views and ideas of God, that it cant even be comparable to any other religion. if you really want to find out about it, ask a seasoned lubavitch rabbi about the concept of god, and other metaphysical subjects, such as kabbalah. it really will change your idea of what judaism is. it renders the term judeo-christian into an oxymoron.
also, side note, judaism doesnt say other religions are wrong, in a sense. it says although other religions ideas might not be correct, just because someone doesnt practice judaism, that doesnt mean that they arent entitled to the rewards in the afterlife and such. so theoretically, really you could be atheist, and still goto heaven according to judaism. but i digress.

also, on your point with the whole anti-christian hysteria, yet criticising judaism or islam is seen as a big no-no, i agree with you. there is unfortunetly a big biased against only christianity rather than other religions. but in time, this bias will break down, and eventually militant atheists will start a witchhunt against all religions (notice, i specify MILITANT atheists, much in teh same way as how there are fundamentalist christians, fundamentalist muslims, etc. my point is these are minority views in each camp, yet they are always the ones that gain the attention in the media)

so basically, the whole point to all of my ranting is to seperate judaism from christianity, or really all religions, and the prejudices people have when it comes to lumping in/associating judaism in with these other "hokey" "oldfashioned" religions. also, i made the point of saying that judaism ISNT a mortal enemy/directly opposed to the views of science. most people make the common mistake of saying "religion is the opposite of science", when really that quote doesnt apply to judaism. hell it doesnt even apply to buddhism.

whatevs, tis good having a somewhat indepth conversation on the subject. i hope i have in the very least sparked some kind of interest you, and hopefully have cleared up the misconceptions people have of judaism.

Christians do tend to be bigger loud mouth pompous asses more of the time.

Jews, while their religion by nature is very passive and low key about many things(which I appreciate), can also be very passive aggressive, seems to me - read Mike D above for example. An example: Have you ever passed the corner of Bedford and N 5th and been offered a flower by a Hasid guy? He gets in your way and asks if you're Jewish - if you say no he turns his back on you and keeps sorting through the homeward hipster throngs - you're not cool. This is about as tactless as most Jews would ever get about turning their nose up(and of course Hasid guys don't exactly represent the whole religion) but it's something I think most people get the message on. I'm certain this kind of thing really ticks off many christians and they end up with a bizarre concept of jews because of the resulting inferiority complex they fall prey to. Then people like Mike D help reinforce the assumptions your typical bone-head christian comes to by proclaiming the superiority of Judaism.

Since I'm using Jews as the example here I want to be clear that this is not an anti-Semitic rant(if you can't determine that from what I've already written). I appreciate diversity and I realize there's a good component to these kinds of things - like liberalism being virtuous with Jews lots of the time - among other admirable qualities. I just think there's an undealt with piece of the puzzle because this kind of thing isn't discussed in the open out of it's super charged status.

Religion has a way of transforming people into snobs with their own unique little denominational twists. The bigger problem is that it's extremely unlikely these groups are ever going to cooperate in the long run. The culture part is fine, whatever - do what you want - I enjoy the resulting diversity. I don't really have any sort of culture to fall back on myself but congratulations to you. Appreciating your neat cultures can be interesting but it goes too far for my taste lots of the time - sorry.

As for Sergios Atheism - I believe in the Power of Myth and the 'all the same god' stuff. I also believe there's a whole bunch of shit nobody can ever explain - Jew, Christian, Scientist, whatever. So I guess I'm agnostic. God is a concept.

Mike D: Regarding "Militant Atheists": Don't even get me started on them. To me, these people aren't atheists at all. They're just anti-religion. I could never understand them. No one can force you to believe in God so their crusade is a little hysterical if you ask me. If someone wants to display a cross, a Star of David or whatever, I fail to see how that "violates the rights" of others. That seems to me their main beef. If you don't believe in God, then what does it matter what other people do?

Of course, they all may have a point when it comes to laws being passed based on religious beliefs or dogma. But it usually goes much further than that with them.

I question their motives, to be honest. I think it's a little nuts when you hear these so-called atheists get all bent out of shape when someone says "god bless you" after one sneezes.

Seeing "In God we Trust" on money should be no big deal either. The point is, if you don't believe in God, these things should matter as much to you as seeing a picture of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Drew: As far as things we can't explain....granted. There are plenty of things we can't explain....yet. Maybe we will never be able to explain it, who knows?

Being an atheist, I have no problem at all with those who believe. If you want to believe, fine. I don't knock anyone for it. I just don't believe and we are each entitled to our own belief systems. I just don't agree, that's all.

Over all: I have a problem with religious people who say I MUST believe because it is TRUE. But I also have a problem with those who try to force others NOT to believe as well. In other words, I feel everyone has a right to think what they want so long as each side respects the other to hold their own beliefs. It's just that I find, in personal situations, when people find out I'm an atheist, it weirds them out as if I'm some sort of evil person bent on destruction or something, which to my point of view, is ridiculous.

Religion is a deeply personal thing and I think it should be kept in the personal realm. It should be kept out of public schools (we have religious schools for all this) or it should be taught at home.

What started this whole debate is the fact that they are trying to teach creatonism in the public schools as fact. To some, it is a fact but it's something that is based on religious beliefs and I think that should be kept out of the public schools UNLESS they teach both beliefs without any bias to one side or the other. Kids aren't stupid. They can decide for themselves what they want to believe. But I think this teaching creationism has another agenda, and that is, creationism is TRUE while Evolution is only a theory.

Ah, but what can you do other than make up your own mind anyway. My atheism was a gradual process. I was a believer when I was young but the more I learned about things, the less I began to believe. To be honest, Joseph Campbell's writings began to make me think in the first place....and learning more about history put me further on the road. In the end, I came to the conclusion that there is no God. I didn't reject God for political reasons or out of any bitterness. These militant atheists you mention seem to REJECT GOD rather than simply not believe in him.

Great discussion....

Gravity is a theory too. If we're teaching creationism in high schools then I insist we teach the Flying Spagetti Monster theory too(look it up).

I'll can let the god invoking inscription on money slide but you have to realize what an overbearing threat religion(christianity) wielded in the hands of the greedy really is in this country. There are good christians who don't want to dominate like this. But the huge radical right wing seriously sees Israel as a model for the christian state they would like to make out of America. If you listen to any of the right wing talk guys, who all have direct influence over the most powerful and connected on the right, you'll hear them repeatedly talk about the constitution not having any seperation between church and state. They are trying their best to warp our history. As outlandish and unlikely as it sounds it is their hope, or at least the hope of enough of them to make it really concerning.

i thought that was funny how you said right wingers look up to israel as an archetype of theocratic state.

whether it is or isnt true that they look up to israel (which i would say it probably is), the ironic thing is, most people involved in israeli government are atheists and the government is officially non-religious (there are small signs of religious influence though.) in fact, less than 30 % of all jews in israel practice orthodox judaism. most jews in israel are agnostics, atheists, or simply dont care one way or the other. so its funny, most americans have this image of israel that everyone walking on the streets is dressed in black with long beards, when really most areas arent like that. there are only a few select neighborhood like that. not like dressing in black and having a long beard is a bad thing...its just ironic, thats all.

im glad we could all reach some understanding.

i have no problem with evolution being taught in school, as long as a teacher doesnt say things like evolution rejects teh idea of the existence of god.

really these creationists are damaging their religions, because it causes kids to associate evolution with atheism and creationism with religion, and makes them feel like they have to pick one or the other, religion or evolution.
well i chose both, and unfortunetly not that many people realize that is a possible choice.

for a quick read on orthodox judaisms view on evolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_creationism

(look im not trying to prove judaism as better than anything, or trying to convert you, im just trying to show you that some views within orthodox judaism arent on the wrong side of the evolution-creationism debate)

also, if you actually are interested in learning about modern science and judaism, i highly suggest you start with dr. gerald schroeders book "The Science of God"

some comments on an article written by him
"Schroeder starts by noting that the generations of humans starting with Adam and Eve adds up to 5757 years. The biblical "clock" for this purpose starts after the initial six days, a mysterious preliminary period which ancient commentators said contains "all the secrets and ages of the universe." Before Adam, and especially before the creation of the earth, the Bible speaks of time from the viewpoint of the universe as a whole, which Schroeder interprets to mean at the moment of "quark confinement," when stable matter formed from energy early in the first second of the big bang.

Relativity theory teaches that time passes much more slowly in conditions of great gravitational pressure than it does on earth. Using these familiar principles, Schroeder calculates that a period of six days under the conditions of quark confinement, when the universe was approximately a million million times smaller and hotter than it is today, is equal to fifteen billion years of earth time. Genesis and modern physics are reconciled. "
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/age.html

"Adam and Eve adds up to 5757 years" LOL!

Flying Spaghetti Monster:
http://www.venganza.org/

"Okay everybody, we're now officially an un-religious state. Please disregard the star of David on our flag... thank you"

Okay, maybe there is no god at all... or at least there's a mean one:

"One of the injured, a 26-year-old woman who witnesses said appeared to have been struck on the back of the head and the shoulder by the falling street lamp, was taken to Bellevue Hospital in Manhattan on a stretcher. Her 11-year-old sister, who was watching the parade from a wheelchair, appeared to have less serious injuries, the police and witnesses said."

drew, why dont you try learning some facts before spouting that crap from your mouth.

what was meant by adam and eve add up to 5757 years is meant as the jewish calendar. YES, the current jewish year is 5765. when shroeder wrote the article it was the jewish year of 5757. but i guess you wouldnt have noticed that it said "biblical clock" after that 5757 in the article because youre simply looking to bash religion anywhere you can.

and the star of david is a symbol of the jewish people. much like the cross on the swiss flag. saying that the star of david signifies a religious state is like saying since the swiss have a cross on their flag, then they have a theocratic christian government.
both the star of david and the swiss greek cross were originally religious symbols that became associated with a culture.

whats your point about the parade? yeah bad shit happens. that the way things happen. thats like calling God a mean bully when your cat died of liver failure. if there is a god, then why is everything expected to be perfect? what would be the point of living if life was perfect.

so i guess the truth comes out in this origin of life debate. some(not all) of you atheist evolutionists simply hate religion because it is religion rather than disliking it for its belief system, even if that religion agrees with you on the issue of evolution.

drew, your bigotry and blind-eye to intellect never ceases to amaze. again, i offer up a big fuck you. happy thanksgiving.

"spouting that crap from your mouth" - the words of a true wise man. What a beautiful image that generates.

Yea, obviously there are some sensible secular Jews in positions of power in Israel now. But how do you explain Zionism in the first place? What's the definition of Zionism? You could beat around the bush and try to deceive god but he knows when you're lying(lol).

Sure, there are lots of equally concerning Arab, Muslim countries but that doesn't change the fact that Israel is a religious state.

The real part that scares me, christian and Jew alike(as far as where this discussion began), is what all the combined mental power of those people believing in one thing so intensely can do. It's terrifying and I don't put the unknown metaphysical effects out of consideration. I.E: meditation and prayer both effect people in powerful ways we don't understand... except that meditation minds it's own business while prayers inadvertently include peoples malevolent inclinations.

BTW - It's easy for you to throw around the accusation of bigotry - you sound like a person who is accustomed to shutting people up with that cheap card when you can't make an honest or even compelling argument.

Eat shit douche bag
(nanny nanny boo boo)

zionism has different meanings to different people. i believe zionism to be the idea that the jewish people should go settle in israel. to others, zionism means that israel must be ruled by a jewish government. to some it means there should be a jewish king. it is a very generic term with loose meaning. of course the socialist secular zionists were the predominate in the turn of the century and during the formation of the state so if thats what youre referring to, i (and many others) dont even agree with that kind of zionism.

so just because some people of a country are of a certain religious belief, that means the government is the same way?

so because the majority of the iraqi population were religious, thats automatically means that saddam hussein ran a theocratic government? using your example, it would seem so.

and it seems like youre blaming the jews for the existence of neocon assholes. look i hate the neocons too. but dont make it seem like jews are behind the neocon virus. jews simply make it to the top of every successful organization.
some of the most powerful liberals are jewish.
some of the most powerful neocons are jewish.
some of the most influential communists, anarchists, bankers, industrialists, criminals/mobsters were jewish.
communism was developed by a jew, marx.
communisms polar opposite, anarcho-capitalism(a belief i suscribe to), was developed by two jews, ludwig von mises, and murray rothbard.

assholes in power who just happen to be jewish is nothing new. stop trying to blame israel and jews for the rise of neocons, christian fundies, and bush.
whenever theres a powerful movement, theres a great chance a jew is at the head of it.

but we digress dont we?
why are you trying to make this into some sort of religion bashing session. this was originally was supposed to be a discussion of science vs a few hardline assholes.

btw
"The real part that scares me, christian and Jew alike(as far as where this discussion began), is what all the combined mental power of those people believing in one thing so intensely can do."

did religion create the nuclear bomb?

Saddam Hussein was a dictator. There will undoubtedly be an Islamic theocracy in Iraq.

"did religion create the nuclear bomb?"
No. Religions do funny things like making people live by impossible rules, though. Like not using birth control and forced arranged marriages etc... etc... Many many things that have certainly cause more pain and hardship in the long run. That's kind of irrelevant, though, and I'm humoring you to even acknowledge such a dumb comparison(yes - you are dumb).

It's not worth continuing the rest of this. It's already been an exercise in futility but to go on any further is beneath my dignity. To do so with someone who throws around accusations of bigotry so carelessly only encourages your foolishness(be glad I gave you that!).

Have a fun confused life, buddy! Shalom!

yes there will be an islamic government in iraq now that saddams gone...my point was to say that having religious populace doesnt automatically mean religious government...

yes religion does funny things, but funny things to YOU. to others religion presents hope, and direction. it all depends on your perception of reality. to make a blanket accusation that anything of a spiritual nature is bad is simply ridiculous.

oh yes call me dumb, thats the surest way to make your case. like claiming facts run contrary to religion isn't, when i clearly showed you science agreeing with a religion (judaism), thus proving your statement wrong, and forcing you to make spastic inane insults.

thus concludes a rather pointless discussion where no progress was made, but rather, you have simply reaffirmed your standardized prejudices.
I wish you best of luck in your clouded future, "buddy"!

Hello my children,

If you don't stop your bickering I'm gonna come back down there and shoot lightning bolts up your ass!

Ciao,

Jesus